January 16, 2013

  • I still know there is a reason, there is a rhyme to this season. (leadership article)

    I recently read a few books... studied a few things on organic church and found a lot of answers to some deep questions my heart has been circling for years. In this endeavor I have found that institutional church really has been coming up short to the vision I hope to see the Bride become (also believing it is God's vision). Then I just end up feeling like a weirdo when nothing seems to point in that hope ever coming forward to fruition. It is a great burden and a lonely one. Organic church has not happened for me yet though I long for it to... I still know there is a reason, there is a rhyme to this season.

    I just wish I could get to where I want to be, but its a process... a time to discover and be full of vision and cultivate passion. This is a difficult time, but one that will produce something only difficulties, blood sweat and tears can - the harder the season the more to be drawn from the trial.

    God give me the visions people fear. Give me the passion only you know how to harness. Instill in me whatever it takes to fulfill your will of love and purpose in my life. I will dream for tomorrow and embrace today's gifts. Let me be full of possibility as I bridal who I am in You in each moment I'm given.

    I hope you read this article, I'd love to discuss it in the comments:
    FiveFoldMinistry

    It is necessarily lengthy... but offers the context of my beliefs on leadership and the 5 fold ministry - at least the start of it.

Comments (20)

  • I'll read it sometime when I've got some time. It sounds like it will be fun.

  • @jmallory - Viola's article. =] hope you come back and be a part of the discussion - assuming one begins. LOL

  • It's an interesting article. I'm not sure about one thing he said - 

    "And they always left the churches they planted on their own without installing a clergy or religious ritual."

    Paul said to Titus - "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest SET IN ORDER the things that are wanting, and ORDAIN ELDERS in every city, as I has APPOINTED THEE."

    And as we discussed before, I Timothy 3 speaks about the office of a bishop and deacon.

    Frank also says - 

     "In that connection, you would never see a first-century Christian sporting titles like “Apostle Delaquarius Epps"

    The Apostle Paul refers to himself as an Apostle.

    Have you ever heard of Philip Yancey? Here's a good article from him on today's church.  LINK

  • @musterion99 - I do wonder about Paul calling himself Apostle, I'm going to address that question personally on the link...

    Concerning eldership... I don't not remember the particulars, but I'm going to look back. It was part of Pagan Christianity. What I do remember is that appointing an elder happens organically. It is not an office to fill but rather an action that someone is fulfilling naturally. In appointing an elder, Pail would be simply acknowledging what is already happening organically.

    I do wonder what you think about how Paul tells them to appoint Elders but never Pastors?

    Also, certainly things need to be ordered. This is the very reason we have the letters from Paul. The church had questions, concerns and needed direction... teaching. But to say that setting something in order is setting up ritual or clergy is not, at least in my perception, the proper way to interpret that scripture.

    Hierarchical leaderships is flawed in the Body and there is no place for its reign, though we want Kings... so we make our own.

    I also think that a better translation of the word order would be 'further' since I think a better translation of remains would be 'lacking'

    5
    For thisreason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appointelders in everycity as I directed you

    It seems it would read clearer as (set and order are the same word in this scripture) 'that you would further what is lacking'

    Simply, the reason he was left in Crete was to continue to train what was left to train. To find the mature and call them out as such so they could continue to teach and disciple... I do not read this passage as a hand over of authority but rather giving honor to the mature, older, ones in the group as such. I think it merits some look into what the role and actions are of the elders...the mature.

  • @xXrEMmUsXx - 

    Concerning eldership... I don't not remember the particulars, but I'm going to look back. It was part of Pagan Christianity. What I do remember is that appointing an elder happens organically. It is not an office to fill but rather an action that someone is fulfilling naturally. In appointing an elder, Paul would be simply acknowledging what is already happening organically.

    I think it can be both. An office that God wants and needs to be filled. I don't think whether it's organic or not really matters. What matters is God's will in the calling of a particular person, whether it's organic or inorganic. It can be abused either way, and be blessed by God either way. I think it can be just as dogmatic to say that it needs to be organic or should only be organic.

     I'm not able to look up the Greek word for order right now to see all the definitions for it.

    I do wonder what you think about how Paul tells them to appoint Elders but never Pastors?

    I believe elders and bishops/pastors are the same. If you disagree then what do you think the difference is between an elder and a bishop/pastor? I also pointed out when we talked before that the bible says obey them that have the rule. You linked me to that article but I pointed out how he was misleading and not giving the full definitions for obey and rule which both Strongs and Thayers give as obey and rule in their definitions, and how he just gave partial definitions that he wanted the readers to read. Even though we may not agree on everything, I still think we're more in agreement than disagreement as I told you that I'm very leary of Pastoral authority, even though I believe God does use it.

    Also, did you read that link I gave?

  • @musterion99 - Have not read the link yet =[ I will comment on that as soon as I can!

    In the denomination I was raised, as pastor is not equal to an elder, though and elder can become a pastor. or rather a pastor is also an elder. (pentecostal, though i don't claim a denomination)

    I think God blesses our traditions. I think He blesses our motivations and hearts desires even when we may be missing it.

    The term organic simply means naturally. I'm not saying you have to be coined an organic group, i was simply pointing out the natural growth and maturing that occurs 'organically'.

    Obeying and ruling: I didn't go back to the article, because I think it too was weighted for a purpose rather than being openly honest about the possibly translations. I generally don't say its this or that, but that it COULD be something else and needs to come down to what the whole picture is.

    For me, the whole picture is a body... growing together as one unit. I see multiple bodies functioning with heads that they have created... and to me this says what we have interpreted, though possible interpretations, are not proper in context to the purpose and maturing view of the Bride as she is called to be.

    I too don't think we are at odds here, just discussing things. And interestingly, I ask the same questions you are asking and have similar concerns because even though it rings true internally, I have to know that its its true overall without a doubt.

    (sorry, just kind of throwing things together today between baby sitting... a little flighty =/)

  • @musterion99 - Oh and I looked up the scriptures where Paul calls himself an apostle, and while he does say he is an apostle, he doesn't include it in his title. Paul, an apostle.... not "I'm Apostle Paul." To me there is a difference. I still hacent' heard back with my question on the initial link though =/ interested in the response.

  • @xXrEMmUsXx -

     The term organic simply means naturally.  I'm not saying you have to be coined an organic group, i was simply pointing out the natural growth and maturing that occurs 'organically'.

    Yes, I know. But I still believe God can be involved either way. Is there not natural growth and maturing when God is involved and it's not organic according to what you think being organic entails? Maybe I misunderstood but I thought you were referring to the appointment of elders, bishops, pastors, etc....I'm not really sure where the distinction is in being organic or not. As I said, all that matters is God's will and calling on a person's life whether to be an elder, pastor, or something else, without worrying whether it's organic or not. 


    For me, the whole picture is a body... growing together as one unit.

    I agree but does that mean there can't be any kind of authority in that one body growing as a unit?


     I see multiple bodies functioning with heads that they have created... 

    Sure that could be true in some churches but that doesn't conclude that it's wrong in all cases. And we might wrongfully judge a church and thing they're out of order when they're really serving God and doing his will. Even in the O.T. there were 12 different functioning tribes of Israel. They weren't all united. Do you think there will ever only be one denomination? I really don't. Not here on this earth. I believe when we're in heaven, we will all be united and agree on everything.

     Oh and I looked up the scriptures where Paul calls himself an apostle, and while he does say he is an apostle, he doesn't include it in his title. Paul, an apostle.... not "I'm Apostle Paul." To me there is a difference.

    In my opinion it's just semantics. He is calling himself an apostle. The apostle Paul or Paul the apostle.

     I still havent' heard back with my question on the initial link though =/ interested in the response.

    I'm not sure what the question was. 

  • thank you for the encouraging words you left on my post.

    Peace

  • @musterion99 - the question was about Paul calling himself an appointed apostle... how it was jiving with him saying Christians then wouldn't do that.

    I truly believe there needs to be one functioning body. The walls have to come down. The divisions are, in my opinion, a huge contribution to hierarchical leaderships garbage. I'm not saying this is sinful and God is not blessing churches doing this... I'm saying THERE IS A BETTER WAY.

    And no, I don't think anyone is the authority as the High priest other than Christ. The vision I have is an every member functioning equally and soaring in their respected gifts. Growing and being 'mature' in particular areas where they will have the best of themselves to offer to the rest of the body as a whole... as one person. This does not happen in clergy/laymen systematic churches. Rather than the authority to minister coming from God, it comes from man appointing man as the voice of God... rather than the natural growth that happens by the administering of gifts through the empowering of the Holy Sprint.

    Could we be unified? Yes. Will it happen any time soon? I don't know But I intend to make it my purpose to bring the unity that is needed to function in this natural way as one person - The Bride of Christ.

    Concerning calling yourself what you are. I know I'm gifted to teach... its natural to me and comes forward often in regular everyday life... There is nothing wrong with calling myself a teacher of the gospel with the gift to teach from God. But to title myself Teacher Summer... or Pastor Summer because I shepard and teach... well, that is not semantics in my opinion. Actually, without the authority from the church, i can't take a title as such....

  • @xXrEMmUsXx -

     I truly believe there needs to be one functioning body. 

    I agree, but I don't think there will ever be just one denomination.


     Rather than the authority to minister coming from God, it comes from man appointing man as the voice of God...

    Who's to say that God doesn't use men to appoint other men, like when Timothy's ministry was given by the the laying on of Paul's hands? What I'm getting at is that we can't put God in a box and say it should happen one way or "naturally" as you say and that God doesn't do it also another way, using men to appoint other men. God is able to use men however he chooses and I think he blesses and uses many of the churches today that are not going by the "natural" way you are speaking about. Just because there's some abuse of authority in some churches, doesn't mean it's not God's will for other churches. And God could also bless a church that you're speaking about, that isn't "natural". I just think we need to be careful about making generalizations against all the churches that exist, that aren't "natural". There's some good ones and some bad ones. Maybe you're not implying that but it does sound like maybe you're speaking against all the churches that aren't operating naturally the way you think they should operate. If that's not what you're saying, then you can explain more on it. 

  • @musterion99 -

    I don't think denominations are going to fit into the Bride. I'm sorry, but this is the very reason I see such a need for radical revolution.

    I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree for now. Its terribly difficult to explain something I'm still in study on...

    In your heart you can know something, then you walk it out... then, possibly, you might understand it enough to teach it.

    I'm not there yet. My rebuttals are terribly lacking and I'm having a difficult time expressing what I sense and understand spiritually in physical terms.

    Edit* added*

    I don't hate churches or anything. And I don't think promoting people to abandon what they know and understand is healthy. I realize the process is large and time consuming. Its a delicate process to evolve the Body, it would not happen over night and pushing the changes would cause more harm then good for certain.

  • @xXrEMmUsXx - I agree that denominations will not fit in the bride also, but the marriage supper of the bride and lamb is after Jesus comes back. As I said earlier, I don't think there will ever just be one denomination. We won't agree on everything until Jesus comes back and we're all with him in heaven. I was also thinking about the early church and how the people of the church took their money and laid it at the apostles feet. This seems to say that the apostles had more authority than the other people. But I agree that we''ll have to disagree on some things while we do agree on other things. Thanks for the discussion.

  • It's nice to be reminded of Frank Viola's message. I haven't been thinking about it for a long time. It's also nice to see someone else besides Watchman Nee or Witness Lee pointing out that it's only 4 people and not 5. Actually, I've been hearing this five-fold ministry thing being applied to single individuals. You're going to function in the five-fold ministry as an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher. These are supposed to be functions of individuals. A prophet could evangelize and an evangelist could prophesy. However, that is not really their designated purpose, so that probably won't do a lot of what they aren't meant to do.

  • @Rejected_Stone - 

    Actually, I've been hearing this five-fold
    ministry thing being applied to single individuals. You're going to
    function in the five-fold ministry as an apostle, prophet, evangelist,
    pastor, and teacher. These are supposed to be functions of individuals. A
    prophet could evangelize and an evangelist could prophesy. However,
    that is not really their designated purpose, so that probably won't do a
    lot of what they aren't meant to do.

    what do you mean?

  •  Welcome and thanks for visiting my site! God bless, ~ Pete

    "Delight yourself also in the Lord, and He shall give you the desires of your heart." Psalm 37:4

  • @xXrEMmUsXx - I keep hearing people being told they are going to function in the five-fold ministry meaning that they are going to be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher. Of course these messages spoken to people are in the church-system frame of mind. To them apostle means they started new churches, prophet means they prophesy, evangelist means they either preach on the streets or visit other churches, pastor means they run a church, and teacher means they teach.

  • @Rejected_Stone - that is what I thought you meant, but the ending was unclear... thanks for clarifying.. =]

  • Hey hope all's well, haven't talked in a while.  I liked this post...and read both the Viola and Yancy articles.

    I get that all authority comes from God and can imagine that God would use authority within His church (as in any human organization).  I'm also aware that we've a 'weighted' / biased view of authority (given our roots of rebellion and democracy)...seemingly afraid of authority.
    I think Jesus' explanation of leadership is necessary to understand God's hope for authority.  Jesus explains that to be the leader of all is to be servant to all.  It really puts on its head the typical hierarchical org chart, which is triangular shaped with the point at the top, where everyone serves the leader.  In Jesus' view the triangle is upside down, where the leader serves everyone.
    I can imagine in that image of authority everyone is pursuing their dreams and the leaders are supporting others in that pursuit.  And that aligns with what I heard you to mean by 'organic' in your discussion with @musterion99 -   That individuals as their gifting is revealed will naturally serve others (as Christ defined leaders)...and then the church may identify them to the broader organization for who they (already) are.
    I'm imaging (and discovering) this is really hard to do...it requires that everyone, especially leaders hold their own vision humbly.  The risk is selfishness (overselling ideas without giving space to let others be heard).  And once selfishness comes up there's relational pain...and withdrawal or aggression kick-in...and the spiral begins.
    Its easier to have rigid organizational rules...restricts the spiral, but as you articulate its oppressive and less life-giving.  Interesting...first time I'm thinking this through.
    My new church experienced the spiral in our first project in which we explored the inverse authority model.  And the pastor seems tempted to withdraw and execute a traditional authority model in response.  I'm hopeful we'll work through it.
    Thanks for the discussion!

  • @god_stories - I loved your input. I'm a little aggravated (totally unrelated), so I will reread and give a legitimate response soon. BTW... missed seeing you around here =] Always encouraged by you!

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